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[Music]

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welcome to shadows reality with your

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hosts a Valentine and furs prepared

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ahead of paradigm as she did and your

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truths question it and now shattered

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reality here we are getting faroush

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another show yes and we have a very

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exciting show today yeah but you know

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let's slate okay

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today is July 25th 2017 and it is our

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52nd show can you believe that no really

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it I really don't either I mean it's

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it's gone by like a like a flash and I

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think it's because we've had a bunch of

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really interesting people on and today

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does not disappoint

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I am really proud and honored to have as

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our guest today the laboratory manager

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of the Princeton engineering anomalies

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Research Lab the pear lab miss Brenda

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done is with us today she worked with

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dr. Robert John and still does he was

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the dean emeritus of Princeton School of

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Engineering and Applied Science and he

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is the professor emeritus of aerospace

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engineering after the lab closed in 27

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2007 they moved their operation to a

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nonprofit organization called the

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International consciousness research

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laboratories or IC RL they also have IC

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i-- IC RL press which publishes books on

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consciousness

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science and spirituality including a

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book called molecular memories a book by

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Brenda Dunn and dr. Robert John which we

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will discuss today amongst other things

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and now without further ado we shall

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welcome mr. Dunn thank you so much for

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being with us I'm really quite impressed

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for sure was telling me about you and

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the work that's being done at pear and I

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really congratulate you on being a

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pioneer it's not taking a lot of courage

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to be a pioneer well thank you it's sure

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to be here could you tell us something

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about there I mean just a lot of people

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are unfamiliar with the Princeton

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engineering anomalies research and I

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think it's important that it be brought

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to public attention okay the pear lab

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was established by Professor John in

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1979 at which time he was the Dean of

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Princeton School of Engineering and

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Applied Sciences and he became

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interested in the topic of human machine

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anomalies through a project an

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undergraduate project that he supervised

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this young woman had read some of the

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studies that had been done where people

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seemed to be able to effect random event

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generators in you know without any

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sensory contact just through their

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consciousness and although he was a bit

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skeptical at the time he did believe

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that the design and construction of a

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random event generator and the design

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and conduct of a research experiment

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associated with it was a reasonable

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undergraduate project so he did

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supervise it and as a result the project

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got some very interesting findings that

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suggested that people could indeed in

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the random output of these devices he

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became quite interested even after the

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student lost interest and believed that

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had these phenomena had important

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engineering implications you know at the

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time engineering technology was just

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booming and they were becoming more and

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more dependent on sensitive random

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processes and various forms of

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applications so he well as an aerospace

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engineer he was also familiar with mr.

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James McDonald the patriarch of the

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McDonnell Douglas Aircraft Company who

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it turned out also had an interest in

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the topic and in particular had some

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concerns about the vulnerability of some

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of the sensitive cockpit instrumentation

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to the emotional reactions of the pilot

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it turns out that mr. McDonnell was also

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a Princeton graduate and at a meeting

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that they both had attended he suggested

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to Bob John that he set up a program to

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study this topic more carefully and and

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that if he would do so he would be glad

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to support it financially well after

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further conversation bob agreed to do it

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and started talking to his

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administration who wasn't weren't too

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happy about the idea but given Bob's

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position as an administrative officer of

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the University and his tenured position

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as a professor they finally agreed to

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let him do it with a number of caveats

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it was not to be an academic program

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simply a research project no teaching no

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student activity and so forth given

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Bob's other

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major commitments he needed somebody to

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manage the laboratory on a day-to-day

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basis and he went you know looking for

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somebody who could fulfill that that

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role in particular he wanted somebody

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who came from a different perspective

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than his own preferably a woman because

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he felt that it goes

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it needed a yin component to his yang if

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you will you know somebody who was

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sensitive to people and so forth and he

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attended a meeting of the Paris

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Psychological Association in the summer

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of 1978 where I was giving a talk

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describing some of my early studies in

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remote viewing remote viewing is a an

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experiment where people attempt to

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describe some distant location without

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any sensory input and to see if they

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could describe it just by thinking about

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it during one of the coffee breaks he we

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met and he told me that he was

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interested in starting a program at

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Princeton he asked if I would be

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interested in working with him and

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needless to say I thought it was a

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fantastic idea I was at a point in my

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life where I was I was in graduate

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school to plot at the time with another

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year to go but had been recently

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divorced I'd sold my house was not quite

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sure what I wanted to do with the rest

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of my life and this was just an

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opportunity you know that defended from

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heaven

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so we talked a bit we discussed that you

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know the potential of the program and he

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in the fall he offered me the position

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the University was a bit uncomfortable

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with the idea of having someone with a

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psychology degree

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managing a engineering research program

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but they they finally did capitulate and

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I moved to Princeton in the following

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spring in June of 79 and we together we

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started the payer program would it be

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fair to say that the work at the pear

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lab was groundbreaking and it brought sy

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research to physics and assured in a new

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era of sy research as a result of it

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probably it certainly was groundbreaking

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although most of the research that we

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did there it was based on replicating

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the work of others

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you know the remote viewing experience

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work that was being funded SR I and some

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of the human-machine anomalies that were

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being conducted by people like physicist

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Helmut Schmidt who I believe at the time

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was working for Boeing I could be wrong

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on that he did work there at one time

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but the program basically had three

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components one of them and probably the

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major one was a body of experiments in

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what we call human machine anomalies

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where people ordinary people not people

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who claimed unusual abilities just

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ordinary volunteers would interact with

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a random system of some sort and we had

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quite a few of them some of them were

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micro electronics some of them were

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macroscopic mechanical devices etc we

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had probably five or six different

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random processes but each of them

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produced some kind of random output some

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sequence of random binary bits and the

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operators as we call them we didn't call

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them subjects because we weren't

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studying the people we were studying the

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machines basically and where these

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operators would attempt to influence the

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output of these devices in accordance

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with a

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pre-stated and prerecorded intention

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usually the experiments followed what we

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called a tri-polar protocol where the

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people would generate data under an

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intention to try to produce higher

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numbers or if you want more more ones

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more you know bits or a negative

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intention where they tried to get more

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lower numbers or more zeros and a

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baseline where they just stayed in the

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same place and just didn't think

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anything what the machine do its own its

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own thing though those external go back

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and describe you know the results of

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those but we collected oh God many

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millions are probably tens of millions

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of data points in these experiments over

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the years the other part of the program

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was a study a remote perception remote

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viewing

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we called it remote perception because

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it seemed to us that the phenomenon

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wasn't necessarily a visual one where as

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I said before people would attempt to

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describe some remote location that was

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assigned randomly and where another

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person would visit at a predetermined

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time our concern in these experiments

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really was to develop a more systematic

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measure of quantification of the results

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instead of having some third party

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attempt to match the perceptions and the

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targets you know to see how well they

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matched we wanted something that took

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the third person out and it was a more

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more qualified quantitative measurement

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of the amount of information that was

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acquired in that experimental program we

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collected over 650 trials over the years

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again with very significant

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results the third part of the program

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basically addressed the question of what

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in the world is going on here namely an

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attempt to design some sort of a model

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that could accommodate these anomalous

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phenomena and explain what was going on

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I can't say we were ever fully

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successful in that regard but we did

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come up with some ideas and some models

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that we published in our papers and

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books it might with a good time to

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mention a couple of those books the

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margins of reality and consciousness and

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the source of reality okay well it C

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margins of reality subtitled the role of

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consciousness in the physical world was

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published in 1987 I believe 87 or 88 87

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and it described the program to date the

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results the design of experiments some

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of the theoretical ideas and the

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implications of these phenomena for a

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variety of areas whether it be

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engineering or psychology or medicine or

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you know a lot of them consciousness and

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the source of reality subtitled the pair

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2000

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oh gosh I'm blocking him on a date I

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think it was truth violators oh yes

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later after the lab closed and so after

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2007 we would say yes I'm trying to

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check that out

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I don't I have a copy of the book that's

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okay yeah 2001 no 2011 oh sorry

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and that was really a sequel to margins

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of reality that covered

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some of the same material but now

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covered the full 28-year history of the

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program as opposed to just the first

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eight years and covered you know some

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other areas that we had not thought of

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you know at that early time in

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particular as the title suggests we had

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become persuaded that what we were

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really studying here was human

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consciousness consciousness not as a

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epiphenomenon of the brain as a lot of

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people you know were proposing but

280
00:16:21,870 --> 00:16:18,850
consciousness as something something

281
00:16:24,860 --> 00:16:21,880
greater something that was associated

282
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:24,870
with what we refer to as the source

283
00:16:31,260 --> 00:16:27,970
however one wants to describe that the

284
00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:31,270
Akashic records the zero-point field the

285
00:16:39,120 --> 00:16:36,370
they T or chi or prana etcetera but

286
00:16:43,620 --> 00:16:39,130
that's a big source with a capital S can

287
00:16:47,190 --> 00:16:43,630
I can I make a comment in here because I

288
00:16:50,190 --> 00:16:47,200
having read some of your of having read

289
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:50,200
all of molecular memory memories which

290
00:16:55,950 --> 00:16:52,810
is one of your recent books I came to

291
00:16:58,680 --> 00:16:55,960
the conclusion that essentially it

292
00:17:01,740 --> 00:16:58,690
seemed to me what pair did is to take

293
00:17:04,410 --> 00:17:01,750
the statements about the fundamental

294
00:17:07,260 --> 00:17:04,420
issues role of consciousness that have

295
00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:07,270
been made by quantum physicists like Max

296
00:17:13,470 --> 00:17:10,630
Planck and many others and then turn

297
00:17:17,370 --> 00:17:13,480
them into replicable engineering

298
00:17:21,780 --> 00:17:17,380
experiments and I wanted to say that

299
00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:21,790
it's my view that many technicians use

300
00:17:27,419 --> 00:17:24,970
quantum physics for practical ends such

301
00:17:30,030 --> 00:17:27,429
as advanced computers and a lot of the

302
00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:30,040
gadgets we use today but they are very

303
00:17:36,210 --> 00:17:32,970
challenged to comprehend their impact on

304
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:36,220
4d physical reality and the primacy of

305
00:17:43,919 --> 00:17:40,570
consciousness exactly we often hear the

306
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:43,929
phrase shut up and calculate referring

307
00:17:49,730 --> 00:17:46,810
to this apparent schism in thought in

308
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:49,740
the technicians who are mechanistic

309
00:17:54,750 --> 00:17:51,490
materialists but used

310
00:17:58,890 --> 00:17:54,760
want them physics in their work yeah

311
00:18:02,370 --> 00:17:58,900
it's quite correct in fact a fourth book

312
00:18:06,380 --> 00:18:02,380
that we published was called quirks of

313
00:18:09,270 --> 00:18:06,390
the quantum mind it actually described a

314
00:18:12,120 --> 00:18:09,280
one of our theoretical approaches in

315
00:18:16,260 --> 00:18:12,130
which we pointed out that if one looked

316
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:16,270
closely at the principles underlying

317
00:18:23,100 --> 00:18:20,410
quantum mechanics one could detect in a

318
00:18:27,330 --> 00:18:23,110
sense of rejection of the activated

319
00:18:29,970 --> 00:18:27,340
consciousness and one could draw a very

320
00:18:33,570 --> 00:18:29,980
interesting and fun parallel between

321
00:18:38,190 --> 00:18:33,580
these various various principles or

322
00:18:39,060 --> 00:18:38,200
ideas and the psychology you know of the

323
00:18:42,660 --> 00:18:39,070
human mind

324
00:18:47,130 --> 00:18:42,670
in fact because I had no background

325
00:18:48,660 --> 00:18:47,140
myself in advanced physics I didn't even

326
00:18:50,700 --> 00:18:48,670
have a background in introductory

327
00:18:54,750 --> 00:18:50,710
physics to be frank when we first

328
00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:54,760
started but Bob has suggested that I fit

329
00:19:00,960 --> 00:18:57,730
in on a class he was teaching at a

330
00:19:03,540 --> 00:19:00,970
graduate level on quantum mechanics and

331
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:03,550
he told me he said don't worry about the

332
00:19:09,570 --> 00:19:06,970
math and you know those various just

333
00:19:13,049 --> 00:19:09,580
listen to the principles the ideas that

334
00:19:16,669 --> 00:19:13,059
are being presented and so I was sitting

335
00:19:20,490 --> 00:19:16,679
in on that class that was comprised of

336
00:19:23,910 --> 00:19:20,500
graduate students mostly engineers or

337
00:19:26,580 --> 00:19:23,920
physicists and one day one of the

338
00:19:30,900 --> 00:19:26,590
students said to me hey aren't you a

339
00:19:33,630 --> 00:19:30,910
psychologist and I said yes and he said

340
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:33,640
why are you taking a class on quantum

341
00:19:40,049 --> 00:19:37,090
mechanics and I looked at him in mock

342
00:19:43,020 --> 00:19:40,059
amazement and I said quantum mechanics

343
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:43,030
gosh I thought this was a course on the

344
00:19:52,980 --> 00:19:48,490
psychology of subatomic particles which

345
00:19:56,790 --> 00:19:52,990
in a sense was the idea but when we

346
00:20:00,360 --> 00:19:56,800
first came up with this model or

347
00:20:02,850 --> 00:20:00,370
metaphor if you will we thought it would

348
00:20:05,150 --> 00:20:02,860
be interesting to see what some of the

349
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:05,160
patriarchs of quantum mechanics

350
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:08,370
had to say on the topic and we did some

351
00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:11,520
pretty heavy background research looking

352
00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:15,930
at all of their their more philosophical

353
00:20:20,420 --> 00:20:17,910
writings you know not the technical ones

354
00:20:22,610 --> 00:20:20,430
and we looked at the you know the

355
00:20:28,690 --> 00:20:22,620
writings of people like Niels Bohr or

356
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:33,380
Wolfgang Pauli Albert Einstein a whole

357
00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:35,610
slew I'm probably leaving some out but

358
00:20:41,350 --> 00:20:39,120
to our amazement what we discovered was

359
00:20:43,310 --> 00:20:41,360
that virtually every one of them

360
00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:43,320
acknowledged that what they were looking

361
00:20:49,820 --> 00:20:45,450
at had to involve the role of

362
00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:49,830
consciousness now they came up you know

363
00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:52,080
among them were or when Schrodinger of

364
00:20:58,400 --> 00:20:54,570
the Schrodinger equation that virtually

365
00:21:02,630 --> 00:20:58,410
every physicist and engineer uses in the

366
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:02,640
course of their daily activities but

367
00:21:08,890 --> 00:21:05,310
although they use the equation none of

368
00:21:11,150 --> 00:21:08,900
them had read any of Schrodinger's

369
00:21:13,550 --> 00:21:11,160
philosophical writings in which he

370
00:21:15,470 --> 00:21:13,560
maintained that what was going on was

371
00:21:19,210 --> 00:21:15,480
consciousness at the activity of

372
00:21:23,450 --> 00:21:19,220
consciousness so anyway we prepared a

373
00:21:25,550 --> 00:21:23,460
very extensive appendix to our book

374
00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:25,560
which I think I mentioned was called

375
00:21:32,170 --> 00:21:29,220
quirks of the quantum mind that relayed

376
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:32,180
all of these comments by all of these

377
00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:36,210
well-regarded early physicists and the

378
00:21:43,190 --> 00:21:38,490
founders really of quantum mechanical

379
00:21:48,860 --> 00:21:43,200
theory so I think I've kind of gotten

380
00:21:50,030 --> 00:21:48,870
off my track are you were talking oh

381
00:21:53,630 --> 00:21:50,040
that's your book works

382
00:21:55,220 --> 00:21:53,640
yeah well although margins of reality

383
00:21:58,150 --> 00:21:55,230
had originally been published by

384
00:22:01,070 --> 00:21:58,160
Harcourt brace jovanovich

385
00:22:05,690 --> 00:22:01,080
Harcourt went out of business and the

386
00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:05,700
book was going out of print and it was

387
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:09,690
in about two thousand nine or ten

388
00:22:15,170 --> 00:22:12,090
we spoke with a colleague who was in the

389
00:22:18,580 --> 00:22:15,180
publishing business and he proposed that

390
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:18,590
we establish a publishing imprint

391
00:22:28,060 --> 00:22:24,050
that we call the IC RL press it's a sub

392
00:22:32,740 --> 00:22:28,070
subsidiary if you will of IC RL and

393
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:32,750
we've published so far I think 13 books

394
00:22:38,990 --> 00:22:36,090
that deal with various aspects as you

395
00:22:43,220 --> 00:22:39,000
pointed out of consciousness science and

396
00:22:45,970 --> 00:22:43,230
spirituality four of those books are our

397
00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:45,980
own that we mentioned margins

398
00:22:50,630 --> 00:22:48,330
consciousness and the source of reality

399
00:22:54,110 --> 00:22:50,640
quirks of the quantum mind and molecular

400
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:54,120
memories and in addition to that we've

401
00:23:00,530 --> 00:22:57,120
published a number of other fascinating

402
00:23:05,180 --> 00:23:00,540
books that deal with these topics by

403
00:23:09,260 --> 00:23:05,190
other authors there is a if you or your

404
00:23:14,120 --> 00:23:09,270
listeners go to the IC RL webpage it's

405
00:23:16,220 --> 00:23:14,130
IC RL dot org you can go to IC RL press

406
00:23:19,190 --> 00:23:16,230
and see a catalogue of all of these

407
00:23:21,700 --> 00:23:19,200
books they range from a collection of

408
00:23:26,980 --> 00:23:21,710
creation myths from different cultures

409
00:23:31,820 --> 00:23:26,990
to a review of the philosophy of Spinoza

410
00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:31,830
to essays on the nature of the

411
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:34,830
relationship of the human mind and that

412
00:23:42,940 --> 00:23:40,530
nature etc a couple of others but

413
00:23:46,250 --> 00:23:42,950
they're all as if I say so myself

414
00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:46,260
fascinating books we have three more at

415
00:23:53,180 --> 00:23:49,190
the moment that are in preparation so

416
00:23:55,310 --> 00:23:53,190
basically we're putting the majority of

417
00:23:58,280 --> 00:23:55,320
our efforts these days into the

418
00:24:02,470 --> 00:23:58,290
publishing area we've stopped doing any

419
00:24:04,370 --> 00:24:02,480
research a couple of years ago it was

420
00:24:06,770 --> 00:24:04,380
getting to the point where there was

421
00:24:08,150 --> 00:24:06,780
really nothing else to say we didn't

422
00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:08,160
want to do more of what we'd already

423
00:24:12,980 --> 00:24:10,890
done that we thought it was more

424
00:24:16,450 --> 00:24:12,990
important to encourage other people to

425
00:24:19,670 --> 00:24:16,460
carry on that work and look in other

426
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:19,680
dimensions of the phenomena that we were

427
00:24:24,470 --> 00:24:21,930
not able to do while we were at the

428
00:24:26,060 --> 00:24:24,480
University that's what I'm not going to

429
00:24:28,220 --> 00:24:26,070
ask you I mean you've done such

430
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:28,230
phenomenal groundbreaking work I would

431
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:30,210
assume that someone was going to pick up

432
00:24:35,029 --> 00:24:32,240
the baton and carry on

433
00:24:37,580 --> 00:24:35,039
yes there are a number of people who

434
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:37,590
have carried it on we have a couple of

435
00:24:45,409 --> 00:24:41,010
colleagues in Copenhagen who developed a

436
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:45,419
wonderful art installation that involves

437
00:24:52,009 --> 00:24:48,570
using a random number generator a random

438
00:24:55,759 --> 00:24:52,019
event generator to alternate a picture

439
00:24:57,560 --> 00:24:55,769
with a random noise background and the

440
00:25:00,340 --> 00:24:57,570
viewer would attempt to make the picture

441
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:00,350
emerge from the from the background

442
00:25:09,049 --> 00:25:06,210
another one in the Netherlands

443
00:25:11,180 --> 00:25:09,059
has developed a program that takes the

444
00:25:14,750 --> 00:25:11,190
output of random event generators and

445
00:25:17,210 --> 00:25:14,760
converts it to musical notes and as you

446
00:25:20,570 --> 00:25:17,220
listen to it you would try to detect or

447
00:25:25,009 --> 00:25:20,580
create music as a military picked up on

448
00:25:27,789 --> 00:25:25,019
any of this oh we've had visits over the

449
00:25:33,889 --> 00:25:27,799
years from people from the government

450
00:25:36,620 --> 00:25:33,899
but we never pardon me we never accepted

451
00:25:38,539 --> 00:25:36,630
any government funding we insisted that

452
00:25:42,799 --> 00:25:38,549
anything we did had to be in the open

453
00:25:49,360 --> 00:25:42,809
literature and our program then and

454
00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:49,370
never now has always been supported by

455
00:25:55,009 --> 00:25:52,529
contributions you know tax deductible

456
00:26:03,620 --> 00:25:55,019
contributions from interested people and

457
00:26:05,990 --> 00:26:03,630
so anthropocentric they haven't really

458
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:06,000
bothered us much except to occasionally

459
00:26:11,120 --> 00:26:08,510
stop by to find out what we were doing

460
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:11,130
some we haven't bothered them very much

461
00:26:17,870 --> 00:26:14,010
well that sounds like a wise decision

462
00:26:20,450 --> 00:26:17,880
I wanted to yeah we right go ahead I was

463
00:26:23,810 --> 00:26:20,460
going to say we were not interested in a

464
00:26:25,340 --> 00:26:23,820
gaining notoriety or fame or money I

465
00:26:27,379 --> 00:26:25,350
mean we were doing this just for the

466
00:26:32,810 --> 00:26:27,389
sheer are they of learning something

467
00:26:34,430 --> 00:26:32,820
exciting and new and as long as you know

468
00:26:37,750 --> 00:26:34,440
we had enough support that we could

469
00:26:41,299 --> 00:26:37,760
maintain our staff we had a staff of

470
00:26:43,909 --> 00:26:41,309
varied from maybe five to eight people

471
00:26:45,260 --> 00:26:43,919
at different times who came from

472
00:26:47,630 --> 00:26:45,270
different disciplines from

473
00:26:51,050 --> 00:26:47,640
Engineering from physics from psychology

474
00:26:54,410 --> 00:26:51,060
from medicine who all worked together in

475
00:26:56,870 --> 00:26:54,420
a very small space that we had carved

476
00:26:59,930 --> 00:26:56,880
out in the basement of the engineering

477
00:27:06,470 --> 00:26:59,940
school I'm talking about pair now not IC

478
00:27:10,510 --> 00:27:06,480
RL and it was in fact there's another

479
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:10,520
cute story I could tell you and that is

480
00:27:15,170 --> 00:27:13,710
when we first started the the laboratory

481
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:15,180
we didn't have a name for the program

482
00:27:23,300 --> 00:27:20,490
and I believe this is an anecdote that

483
00:27:25,490 --> 00:27:23,310
was in molecular memories we have

484
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:25,500
thought we were being very clever by

485
00:27:32,690 --> 00:27:29,970
posting a Greeks eye on the door and SCI

486
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:32,700
is a term that's used you know to

487
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:37,970
represent psychology to represent

488
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:41,520
anomalous or psychic phenomena it's also

489
00:27:49,700 --> 00:27:46,530
a very important symbol that is used in

490
00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:49,710
engineering and physics it's at the the

491
00:27:54,950 --> 00:27:51,570
center or the core of the Schrodinger

492
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:54,960
equation okay so we figured that there

493
00:27:59,350 --> 00:27:56,880
was some interesting correspondence

494
00:28:02,930 --> 00:27:59,360
there we put this Greeks eye on the door

495
00:28:06,020 --> 00:28:02,940
and within a couple of weeks we had two

496
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:06,030
or three people come by and ask us with

497
00:28:10,970 --> 00:28:08,610
rather frightened looks on their faces

498
00:28:15,830 --> 00:28:10,980
why we had a Devil's pitchfork on the

499
00:28:18,470 --> 00:28:15,840
door we thought this was rather

500
00:28:21,580 --> 00:28:18,480
interesting and from a psychological

501
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:21,590
perspective maybe telling us more than

502
00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:26,370
they even meant to be telling us but we

503
00:28:33,230 --> 00:28:29,910
took down the thigh with a sigh and we

504
00:28:36,710 --> 00:28:33,240
we put up a poster that had you've

505
00:28:38,930 --> 00:28:36,720
probably seen these it's a picture of a

506
00:28:42,650 --> 00:28:38,940
spiral galaxy with a little arrow that

507
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:42,660
says you are here oh yeah well one day I

508
00:28:46,970 --> 00:28:44,910
came in the morning and there was some

509
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:46,980
guy standing there staring at our door

510
00:28:52,490 --> 00:28:49,050
and he looked at me accusingly and said

511
00:28:56,030 --> 00:28:52,500
you know that's not our galaxy ha ha ha

512
00:28:58,040 --> 00:28:56,040
and I said oh thank you for pointing

513
00:28:58,830 --> 00:28:58,050
that out I'd hate to have a misleading

514
00:29:02,340 --> 00:28:58,840
sign

515
00:29:06,630 --> 00:29:02,350
door I ripped it off went inside and

516
00:29:09,060 --> 00:29:06,640
broke up laughing but shortly after that

517
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:09,070
Bob had suggested we really had to come

518
00:29:13,830 --> 00:29:11,650
up with a name for the program now we

519
00:29:17,910 --> 00:29:13,840
went out to lunch one day and we were

520
00:29:20,610 --> 00:29:17,920
sitting in this little cafe talking

521
00:29:23,220 --> 00:29:20,620
about it and he said what do you think

522
00:29:26,910 --> 00:29:23,230
about the name Princeton engineering

523
00:29:31,230 --> 00:29:26,920
anomalies research and I thought of it

524
00:29:35,970 --> 00:29:31,240
and I said pe8 our pair now that doesn't

525
00:29:37,980 --> 00:29:35,980
grab me meanwhile the waitress came and

526
00:29:39,990 --> 00:29:37,990
brought our lunch and Bob said pass the

527
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:40,000
salt and I picked up the salt shaker

528
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:42,810
which turned out to be a pewter pair oh

529
00:29:51,330 --> 00:29:46,690
okay and I said okay you know I still

530
00:29:53,940 --> 00:29:51,340
don't like it and when we finished our

531
00:29:55,890 --> 00:29:53,950
main course the waitress came back can I

532
00:29:57,620 --> 00:29:55,900
interest you folks in some dessert we

533
00:30:00,390 --> 00:29:57,630
had some fresh pear cake

534
00:30:02,750 --> 00:30:00,400
tossing and I said okay I can't I can't

535
00:30:06,980 --> 00:30:02,760
win this one

536
00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:06,990
synchronicity so Paris became and

537
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:09,760
apparently having a picture of a pear on

538
00:30:17,060 --> 00:30:12,930
the door didn't seem to offend anyone

539
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:17,070
but but I think it gives an interesting

540
00:30:22,460 --> 00:30:19,330
perspective on the response and

541
00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:22,470
reactions of some of our academic

542
00:30:27,780 --> 00:30:25,390
colleagues and the community there that

543
00:30:33,930 --> 00:30:27,790
though the discomfort that they had with

544
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:33,940
the program and although to its credit

545
00:30:39,570 --> 00:30:36,370
the university permitted us to continue

546
00:30:42,810 --> 00:30:39,580
with it they were very very careful

547
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:42,820
about oversight and making sure we

548
00:30:48,660 --> 00:30:44,770
didn't do anything we'll make claims

549
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:48,670
that were outlandish or too sensational

550
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:51,850
I think is Bob put it they were worried

551
00:30:57,540 --> 00:30:54,730
about some of their alumni you know

552
00:31:00,150 --> 00:30:57,550
they're the big spender funders I could

553
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:00,160
get embarrassed and they'd lose money

554
00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:02,650
although curiously most of our major

555
00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:05,170
supporters over the years were Princeton

556
00:31:13,029 --> 00:31:09,310
alumni since the James McDonald Laurance

557
00:31:15,460 --> 00:31:13,039
Rockefeller Donald Webster

558
00:31:17,740 --> 00:31:15,470
and one or two others you know who

559
00:31:20,230 --> 00:31:17,750
supported us privately because they were

560
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:20,240
interested in what we were doing yeah

561
00:31:24,010 --> 00:31:22,010
Lawrence Rock and Hitler is quite an

562
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:24,020
interesting fellow from the point of

563
00:31:29,860 --> 00:31:26,570
view of anomalies research since he's

564
00:31:32,140 --> 00:31:29,870
also been extremely interested in the

565
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:32,150
study of UFOs I point that out simply

566
00:31:38,950 --> 00:31:35,570
because many of our listeners are people

567
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:38,960
who are interested in what are UFOs in

568
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:41,570
general so that is that yeah that is

569
00:31:46,899 --> 00:31:43,610
quite interesting I want to bring you

570
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:46,909
back for a minute to something that I

571
00:31:52,539 --> 00:31:49,610
think that some of our listeners who

572
00:31:54,310 --> 00:31:52,549
aren't of the engineering persuasion

573
00:31:57,519 --> 00:31:54,320
probably need a little more information

574
00:31:59,919 --> 00:31:57,529
on in a very non-technical way you

575
00:32:02,860 --> 00:31:59,929
started to explain it but could you go

576
00:32:05,620 --> 00:32:02,870
back to random number generators and

577
00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:05,630
random event generators and sort of

578
00:32:11,430 --> 00:32:09,110
explain why you know how they work and

579
00:32:14,740 --> 00:32:11,440
and I understand they're still

580
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:14,750
manufactured today by Siler on I believe

581
00:32:20,289 --> 00:32:17,690
which is an organization or a company

582
00:32:22,810 --> 00:32:20,299
that's sort of related to you're all

583
00:32:26,169 --> 00:32:22,820
there yeah they were that was founded by

584
00:32:31,060 --> 00:32:26,179
some of our former yes colleagues and

585
00:32:32,590 --> 00:32:31,070
students yeah a random event generator

586
00:32:35,350 --> 00:32:32,600
and a random number generator or

587
00:32:37,899 --> 00:32:35,360
basically the same thing okay it's just

588
00:32:40,210 --> 00:32:37,909
that we use the term random event

589
00:32:43,060 --> 00:32:40,220
generator because the devices that we

590
00:32:45,669 --> 00:32:43,070
use didn't technically generate numbers

591
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:45,679
they generated binary bits ones and

592
00:32:54,549 --> 00:32:49,610
zeros okay and you end up with a string

593
00:32:57,909 --> 00:32:54,559
of random digits ones and zeros one one

594
00:32:59,889 --> 00:32:57,919
zero one zero zero one you know coming

595
00:33:05,049 --> 00:32:59,899
off this thing that the output was

596
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:05,059
recorded in a computer and on a printed

597
00:33:11,889 --> 00:33:10,730
tape record and they were generated at

598
00:33:14,169 --> 00:33:11,899
varying speeds

599
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:14,179
most of the data were generated at a

600
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:17,210
thousand bits per second so they could

601
00:33:24,850 --> 00:33:21,370
generate a lot of data very rapidly and

602
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:24,860
the the output of the random event

603
00:33:31,180 --> 00:33:26,810
generator the noise

604
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:31,190
was converted to well as I say a string

605
00:33:41,890 --> 00:33:36,650
of bits and that went through a series

606
00:33:45,970 --> 00:33:41,900
of throw up our processes that counted

607
00:33:48,910 --> 00:33:45,980
and displayed these counts in numerical

608
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:48,920
form mainly what they were looking at

609
00:33:55,150 --> 00:33:51,650
was the sequences of ones and zeros

610
00:33:58,510 --> 00:33:55,160
which should have been random to see how

611
00:34:01,360 --> 00:33:58,520
many times these bits conformed to a

612
00:34:09,940 --> 00:34:01,370
regular alternation of one zero one zero

613
00:34:15,130 --> 00:34:09,950
one zero okay okay now if by chance you

614
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:15,140
would expect about 50% of the time to be

615
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:19,010
a that it would match and so let's say

616
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:22,010
you had generated a thousand of these

617
00:34:34,169 --> 00:34:27,410
bits you would expect a number of I'm

618
00:34:40,030 --> 00:34:37,150
know it looked at you at a hundred it

619
00:34:42,610 --> 00:34:40,040
looked at strings of a hundreds of 200

620
00:34:44,650 --> 00:34:42,620
of these bits Oh forgive me it's it's

621
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:44,660
been a couple of years okay not a

622
00:34:50,710 --> 00:34:47,690
brother yeah so you'd have it would look

623
00:34:53,620 --> 00:34:50,720
at a string of 200 bits where it would

624
00:34:57,310 --> 00:34:53,630
expect a hundred matches to all the ones

625
00:35:00,070 --> 00:34:57,320
and zeros and by chance you'd expect a

626
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:00,080
count of a hundred and people would look

627
00:35:05,860 --> 00:35:03,050
at these numbers coming out at about one

628
00:35:08,310 --> 00:35:05,870
per second and attempt to get more

629
00:35:12,100 --> 00:35:08,320
numbers that were over a hundred or more

630
00:35:15,430 --> 00:35:12,110
numbers that were under a hundred or to

631
00:35:20,050 --> 00:35:15,440
just let it generate these baselines and

632
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:20,060
what we discovered was over many many

633
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:24,770
trials there were more numbers above a

634
00:35:29,470 --> 00:35:26,570
hundred when people were trying to give

635
00:35:32,650 --> 00:35:29,480
high numbers and more numbers below when

636
00:35:35,830 --> 00:35:32,660
they were trying to get low numbers the

637
00:35:38,830 --> 00:35:35,840
effects were quite small but over many

638
00:35:39,670 --> 00:35:38,840
many trials they turned out to be

639
00:35:43,050 --> 00:35:39,680
statistic

640
00:35:46,720 --> 00:35:43,060
very unlikely to have occurred by chance

641
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:46,730
let me give you an example let's say you

642
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:51,410
flipped ten coins by chance you'd expect

643
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:54,770
to get five heads right mm-hmm if you

644
00:36:00,790 --> 00:35:57,410
got six heads you wouldn't be overly

645
00:36:03,730 --> 00:36:00,800
impressed but let's say you flip that

646
00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:03,740
coin a hundred times and you got sixty

647
00:36:07,810 --> 00:36:04,370
heads

648
00:36:11,220 --> 00:36:07,820
well that was still only one extra head

649
00:36:14,590 --> 00:36:11,230
you know but it was happening too often

650
00:36:18,220 --> 00:36:14,600
when you did this a thousand times or

651
00:36:20,770 --> 00:36:18,230
ten thousand times and you got six

652
00:36:22,590 --> 00:36:20,780
thousand heads then you were looking at

653
00:36:25,420 --> 00:36:22,600
something that was very unlikely

654
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:25,430
something was going on there you

655
00:36:30,190 --> 00:36:27,890
couldn't look at any individual number

656
00:36:33,310 --> 00:36:30,200
and tell that it was an anomalous number

657
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:33,320
the anomaly appeared to be statistical

658
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:39,410
in nature that is it was as if I'm not

659
00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:41,090
saying this is what happened but it

660
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:44,000
would be as if somehow or other the

661
00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:46,130
consciousness of the operator was

662
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:49,850
inserting some component of organization

663
00:36:54,850 --> 00:36:52,610
into this random process making it just

664
00:36:58,090 --> 00:36:54,860
a little less random than it should have

665
00:37:02,080 --> 00:36:58,100
been mm-hmm now I mention this because

666
00:37:05,230 --> 00:37:02,090
as a result of that small effect size

667
00:37:08,530 --> 00:37:05,240
that showed up only statistically over

668
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:08,540
many many events and other factors that

669
00:37:14,710 --> 00:37:11,690
we discovered for example the fact that

670
00:37:19,090 --> 00:37:14,720
men and women operators tended to

671
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:19,100
produce different patterns of results we

672
00:37:26,260 --> 00:37:21,410
also found that when we had two people

673
00:37:29,590 --> 00:37:26,270
working together if the two participants

674
00:37:31,540 --> 00:37:29,600
were opposite sex they were getting

675
00:37:34,810 --> 00:37:31,550
results that were about two and a half

676
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:34,820
times larger than either of them would

677
00:37:40,540 --> 00:37:37,970
get individually if they were of the

678
00:37:44,740 --> 00:37:40,550
same sex the results candid to be just a

679
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:44,750
chance if they if the opposite sex pairs

680
00:37:53,450 --> 00:37:49,490
were a couple their results tended to be

681
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:53,460
even stronger something like 77

682
00:37:58,730 --> 00:37:56,010
times as large as what they would get

683
00:38:00,859 --> 00:37:58,740
individually so again this question

684
00:38:05,180 --> 00:38:00,869
comes up what in the world would gender

685
00:38:08,030 --> 00:38:05,190
have to do with this a few other things

686
00:38:11,900 --> 00:38:08,040
that were involved there but it led us

687
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:11,910
to a hypothesis that we in fact we're

688
00:38:18,319 --> 00:38:13,970
working on a book on this topic that

689
00:38:20,720 --> 00:38:18,329
possibly what we're looking at here that

690
00:38:24,980 --> 00:38:20,730
we're calling consciousness is nothing

691
00:38:28,940 --> 00:38:24,990
more than the life force itself the

692
00:38:31,970 --> 00:38:28,950
process that underlies evolution you

693
00:38:35,299 --> 00:38:31,980
know evolution is a small effect that is

694
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:35,309
driven by a small alteration of

695
00:38:40,010 --> 00:38:37,710
otherwise random processes you know

696
00:38:44,710 --> 00:38:40,020
genetic recombination and so forth

697
00:38:48,940 --> 00:38:44,720
uh-huh it's also something we're having

698
00:38:52,370 --> 00:38:48,950
male female input seems to enhance the

699
00:38:55,819 --> 00:38:52,380
process of the process one thinks and

700
00:39:03,170 --> 00:38:55,829
and anyway this is a very interesting

701
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:03,180
area of exploration because most of the

702
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:05,210
people who have looked at consciousness

703
00:39:10,579 --> 00:39:07,770
have tended to look at it either from

704
00:39:14,030 --> 00:39:10,589
the point of view of psychology or the

705
00:39:18,339 --> 00:39:14,040
point of view of physics okay except

706
00:39:21,740 --> 00:39:18,349
that what's going on here involves

707
00:39:23,530 --> 00:39:21,750
non-local effects both in the remote

708
00:39:26,299 --> 00:39:23,540
perception and in the human-machine

709
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:26,309
experiments where people could be miles

710
00:39:31,970 --> 00:39:29,250
or even hundreds of miles away from the

711
00:39:34,430 --> 00:39:31,980
machines and still get the same effects

712
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:34,440
they could even be thinking about the

713
00:39:41,780 --> 00:39:38,130
process the hours or even days before or

714
00:39:45,109 --> 00:39:41,790
after the machine was running it was

715
00:39:47,690 --> 00:39:45,119
clearly a non-local process and that was

716
00:39:50,620 --> 00:39:47,700
not associated with the brain of the

717
00:39:55,599 --> 00:39:50,630
person sitting in front of the machine

718
00:39:59,690 --> 00:39:55,609
the fact that it was non-local defied

719
00:40:03,230 --> 00:39:59,700
the primary tenets of physics namely

720
00:40:05,539 --> 00:40:03,240
that effect should fall off or with

721
00:40:07,970 --> 00:40:05,549
distance they should get weaker as you

722
00:40:11,420 --> 00:40:07,980
got further away

723
00:40:14,060 --> 00:40:11,430
and these results were challenging these

724
00:40:17,660 --> 00:40:14,070
rules of physics the rules of psychology

725
00:40:20,420 --> 00:40:17,670
and it led us to think well if it's not

726
00:40:22,940 --> 00:40:20,430
physics and it's not psychology maybe

727
00:40:27,710 --> 00:40:22,950
it's something that lies in the area of

728
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:27,720
biology namely evolution okay or as I

729
00:40:33,130 --> 00:40:30,210
said the life force they along the towel

730
00:40:37,580 --> 00:40:33,140
as Bergson called it

731
00:40:41,870 --> 00:40:37,590
so anyway did I explain the process yes

732
00:40:43,940 --> 00:40:41,880
yes you did and I know I was gonna say a

733
00:40:47,030 --> 00:40:43,950
lot of interesting footnotes as well yes

734
00:40:49,250 --> 00:40:47,040
yes I have two kind of questions

735
00:40:53,810 --> 00:40:49,260
corollary questions and we had a

736
00:40:56,450 --> 00:40:53,820
gentleman on here who I know named dr.

737
00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:56,460
ross dunseith who seems to be doing some

738
00:41:03,770 --> 00:40:58,650
similar experiments down at dops

739
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:03,780
under the subheading of like micro pique

740
00:41:09,349 --> 00:41:07,410
and and so you know how do you feel

741
00:41:12,349 --> 00:41:09,359
about that that's the first question

742
00:41:14,540 --> 00:41:12,359
and the second question is having to do

743
00:41:17,090 --> 00:41:14,550
with bringing these random number

744
00:41:20,660 --> 00:41:17,100
generators out to events which i believe

745
00:41:23,180 --> 00:41:20,670
is something that dr. Roger Nelson who

746
00:41:25,790 --> 00:41:23,190
was expected to be a future guest on

747
00:41:27,050 --> 00:41:25,800
shattered reality the the wonderful dr.

748
00:41:28,730 --> 00:41:27,060
Roger Nelson

749
00:41:31,190 --> 00:41:28,740
he brought things he brought these

750
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:31,200
random number generators out to events

751
00:41:38,300 --> 00:41:36,210
and and saw a nominal anomalies there so

752
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:38,310
I wonder if you would if you could talk

753
00:41:43,550 --> 00:41:40,710
to either of those two subjects well the

754
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:43,560
first question I'm not familiar with

755
00:41:47,210 --> 00:41:45,570
that gentleman's work but I know there

756
00:41:50,450 --> 00:41:47,220
are a lot of people who are doing that

757
00:41:53,180 --> 00:41:50,460
kind of work and finding very similar

758
00:41:57,109 --> 00:41:53,190
results so although I can't speak pro or

759
00:41:58,880 --> 00:41:57,119
con to his particular studies I'm

760
00:42:02,480 --> 00:41:58,890
delighted to know that there are people

761
00:42:04,780 --> 00:42:02,490
you know doing that as far as these the

762
00:42:09,910 --> 00:42:04,790
other this is also a very interesting

763
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:09,920
aspect of the payer program when our

764
00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:13,050
participants did their thing and we'd

765
00:42:18,740 --> 00:42:14,730
ask them you know what they were feeling

766
00:42:20,720 --> 00:42:18,750
and experiencing most of them said you

767
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:20,730
know although what you're

768
00:42:25,370 --> 00:42:23,010
and here is the effect of intention

769
00:42:28,579 --> 00:42:25,380
there's more than just having an

770
00:42:32,810 --> 00:42:28,589
intention that's going on here one has

771
00:42:36,380 --> 00:42:32,820
to be resonant with the Machine one has

772
00:42:38,770 --> 00:42:36,390
to have an emotional connection much in

773
00:42:42,079 --> 00:42:38,780
the way a musician might have an

774
00:42:45,650 --> 00:42:42,089
emotional relationship with his in-store

775
00:42:50,359 --> 00:42:45,660
her instrument the way a race car driver

776
00:42:55,250 --> 00:42:50,369
has a bond with his car and so forth

777
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:55,260
that this emotional thing was important

778
00:42:59,030 --> 00:42:57,570
to them and we said well it's very

779
00:43:02,200 --> 00:42:59,040
difficult to study

780
00:43:05,359 --> 00:43:02,210
you know emotion in a controlled

781
00:43:07,130 --> 00:43:05,369
protocol in the laboratory but what we

782
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:07,140
could do was we could build these

783
00:43:13,849 --> 00:43:10,290
portable random event generators that

784
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:13,859
could be taken out into the field this

785
00:43:21,349 --> 00:43:17,210
we we call this experiment field rig

786
00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:21,359
field or EEG which has a double entendre

787
00:43:27,349 --> 00:43:23,910
the field being you know out in the

788
00:43:31,790 --> 00:43:27,359
field and also being some help picking

789
00:43:33,829 --> 00:43:31,800
up some kind of emotional field and we

790
00:43:37,460 --> 00:43:33,839
would take these devices to different

791
00:43:41,470 --> 00:43:37,470
environments that might have a

792
00:43:44,390 --> 00:43:41,480
possibility of generating a strong

793
00:43:47,329 --> 00:43:44,400
emotional resonance among the

794
00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:47,339
participants it might be a prayer

795
00:43:52,790 --> 00:43:49,710
meeting it might be a meditation group

796
00:43:56,349 --> 00:43:52,800
it might be a concert but some place

797
00:43:59,290 --> 00:43:56,359
where there's a group of people who are

798
00:44:02,270 --> 00:43:59,300
if you will all on the same wavelength

799
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:02,280
most of us have experienced that kind of

800
00:44:07,609 --> 00:44:05,490
thing or I hope we have it's really

801
00:44:09,710 --> 00:44:07,619
quite a transcendent experience where

802
00:44:13,309 --> 00:44:09,720
you feel like you're just part of

803
00:44:15,230 --> 00:44:13,319
something bigger you're no longer

804
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:15,240
functioning as an individual but as a

805
00:44:21,260 --> 00:44:19,170
collective and we discovered that the

806
00:44:23,740 --> 00:44:21,270
random event generators which were just

807
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:23,750
running unobserved in the background

808
00:44:30,230 --> 00:44:26,970
we're producing more ordered outputs

809
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:30,240
during these periods where people did

810
00:44:38,820 --> 00:44:35,650
have this subjective feeling of of

811
00:44:41,490 --> 00:44:38,830
as opposed to when we brought it into

812
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:41,500
more mundane environments maybe a

813
00:44:47,910 --> 00:44:44,110
lecture hall or maybe a board meeting or

814
00:44:51,570 --> 00:44:47,920
you know where nothing would show up now

815
00:44:56,220 --> 00:44:51,580
Roger Nelson who was working with us on

816
00:44:59,120 --> 00:44:56,230
this project became very intrigued by

817
00:45:03,180 --> 00:44:59,130
this and wanted to take it further and

818
00:45:07,250 --> 00:45:03,190
he developed this program he calls the

819
00:45:12,140 --> 00:45:07,260
global consciousness Network which

820
00:45:19,050 --> 00:45:15,450
situated all over the world all over the

821
00:45:21,180 --> 00:45:19,060
planet I think last time I heard it was

822
00:45:23,910 --> 00:45:21,190
something on the order of 60 or 70 of

823
00:45:26,220 --> 00:45:23,920
these devices well all of which would be

824
00:45:29,870 --> 00:45:26,230
generating these random outputs

825
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:29,880
continuously into a dedicated server and

826
00:45:40,070 --> 00:45:34,810
then if they would be time and date

827
00:45:45,859 --> 00:45:40,080
marked and during periods of strong

828
00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:45,869
global emotion there were significant

829
00:45:59,070 --> 00:45:57,010
again and increases in the the or should

830
00:46:02,849 --> 00:45:59,080
we say decreases in the randomness city

831
00:46:05,910 --> 00:46:02,859
okay he's done this he has some results

832
00:46:10,410 --> 00:46:05,920
his a global consciousness Network you

833
00:46:12,660 --> 00:46:10,420
can also look that up on the Internet

834
00:46:15,300 --> 00:46:12,670
and he describes hundreds of these

835
00:46:19,290 --> 00:46:15,310
trials with amazingly significant

836
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:19,300
results one of the more well-known one

837
00:46:27,230 --> 00:46:23,290
was the output that occurred just before

838
00:46:34,099 --> 00:46:27,240
and during the 9/11 attacks in New York

839
00:46:40,530 --> 00:46:34,109
way back when Princess Diana's funeral

840
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:40,540
that Barack Obama's election there was

841
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:43,450
none for the most recent election to the

842
00:46:47,610 --> 00:46:45,970
best of my knowledge that I don't think

843
00:46:50,850 --> 00:46:47,620
would you this

844
00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:50,860
if he qualify as a resonant experience

845
00:46:57,180 --> 00:46:54,910
for most people well his his work is

846
00:47:00,420 --> 00:46:57,190
really really fascinating and we are

847
00:47:04,890 --> 00:47:00,430
hoping to have him on at sometime in the

848
00:47:06,510 --> 00:47:04,900
fall I want to I think you'd find it I

849
00:47:09,060 --> 00:47:06,520
think your listeners would find it

850
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:09,070
fascinating it's really exciting stuff

851
00:47:15,810 --> 00:47:12,690
but again it's giving evidence for this

852
00:47:19,650 --> 00:47:15,820
non-local consciousness as an ordering

853
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:19,660
principle yes and that's the key to the

854
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:21,010
whole thing as far as we're concerned

855
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:24,010
we're looking at some primordial

856
00:47:31,050 --> 00:47:28,930
ordering principle that effects life at

857
00:47:34,350 --> 00:47:31,060
least and probably probably all of

858
00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:34,360
nature in some way I mean if you're

859
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:36,940
willing to concede that consciousness

860
00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:40,330
goes beyond just human experience

861
00:47:48,210 --> 00:47:45,280
absolutely am i feeling entirely you

862
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:48,220
know to run one of these experiments

863
00:47:55,790 --> 00:47:50,890
alongside artificial intelligence and

864
00:47:58,350 --> 00:47:55,800
see if that I developed its own sense

865
00:48:00,060 --> 00:47:58,360
and would be interesting I don't know of

866
00:48:02,730 --> 00:48:00,070
anyone who's doing that but it would be

867
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:02,740
a very interesting thing to study I know

868
00:48:10,620 --> 00:48:04,810
that Michio Kaku

869
00:48:15,570 --> 00:48:10,630
I heard him recently speaking about how

870
00:48:20,610 --> 00:48:15,580
to tell if artificial intelligence had

871
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:20,620
gained self consciousness and it it he

872
00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:24,490
was speaking about putting a a bit into

873
00:48:32,190 --> 00:48:28,510
the brain or memory of this artificial

874
00:48:33,930 --> 00:48:32,200
intelligence that would shut it down if

875
00:48:38,010 --> 00:48:33,940
it started to have murderous thoughts

876
00:48:41,130 --> 00:48:38,020
about humans well I thought that was a

877
00:48:48,180 --> 00:48:41,140
rather novel I'm not familiar with that

878
00:48:51,510 --> 00:48:48,190
my own feeling on that is I could go

879
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:51,520
back to a quote by oh god what's the guy

880
00:49:01,109 --> 00:48:57,570
who oh one of the early founders of

881
00:49:05,370 --> 00:49:01,119
computers a touring touring touring

882
00:49:07,649 --> 00:49:05,380
once was asked whether how weather how

883
00:49:09,809 --> 00:49:07,659
you could tell whether it artificial

884
00:49:13,620 --> 00:49:09,819
intelligence you know machine was

885
00:49:16,589 --> 00:49:13,630
conscious and his response was when you

886
00:49:21,979 --> 00:49:16,599
typed in a statement and the machine

887
00:49:31,469 --> 00:49:27,739
from from my perspective and dr. Jones

888
00:49:34,380 --> 00:49:31,479
and based on what we have seen from our

889
00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:34,390
research there's more than intention

890
00:49:39,109 --> 00:49:36,609
there's more than a quantitative process

891
00:49:43,709 --> 00:49:39,119
going on here there is this emotional

892
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:43,719
component of resonance and until a

893
00:49:48,509 --> 00:49:45,729
computer can develop that kind of

894
00:49:53,359 --> 00:49:51,059
you know feature I don't think it has

895
00:49:58,229 --> 00:49:53,369
any chance of having real intelligence

896
00:50:00,149 --> 00:49:58,239
well it's not an opinion it's its

897
00:50:05,519 --> 00:50:00,159
opinion there's also a Syrian you

898
00:50:07,679 --> 00:50:05,529
ufology to where I mean for Bill and I

899
00:50:10,289 --> 00:50:07,689
used to kid around about the soul

900
00:50:13,859 --> 00:50:10,299
sucking vampires from outer space but

901
00:50:17,130 --> 00:50:13,869
that a lot of the little greys are

902
00:50:20,789 --> 00:50:17,140
supposedly just robotic Android type

903
00:50:23,309 --> 00:50:20,799
figures and really have no sense of

904
00:50:25,079 --> 00:50:23,319
being alive and that's why they've come

905
00:50:27,569 --> 00:50:25,089
to earth and that's why they're studied

906
00:50:29,849 --> 00:50:27,579
in humans like they just don't they just

907
00:50:31,679 --> 00:50:29,859
don't get it you know they can we tell

908
00:50:34,259 --> 00:50:31,689
you the frequency of the various shades

909
00:50:36,709 --> 00:50:34,269
of blue but they can't tell right why

910
00:50:38,489 --> 00:50:36,719
they like one shade over another and

911
00:50:41,309 --> 00:50:38,499
right and they don't they don't

912
00:50:46,249 --> 00:50:41,319
understand concepts like love or beauty

913
00:50:50,249 --> 00:50:46,259
or joy they say you know these words

914
00:50:54,419 --> 00:50:50,259
these are human and perhaps animal or

915
00:50:57,179 --> 00:50:54,429
even plant capabilities I mean

916
00:51:00,479 --> 00:50:57,189
definitely under me people talk to

917
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:00,489
plants that I know my I have a couple of

918
00:51:06,779 --> 00:51:03,729
tech cats mm-hmm they they communicate

919
00:51:11,370 --> 00:51:06,789
not only with each other but with me you

920
00:51:13,079 --> 00:51:11,380
know and I've had in our book let me let

921
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:13,089
me turn for a moment to molecular

922
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:15,570
memories

923
00:51:20,190 --> 00:51:17,720
after we finished publishing

924
00:51:22,500 --> 00:51:20,200
consciousness on the source of reality a

925
00:51:25,020 --> 00:51:22,510
number of our friends and colleagues

926
00:51:27,900 --> 00:51:25,030
said you know you've written some good

927
00:51:30,900 --> 00:51:27,910
books describing your research but

928
00:51:33,740 --> 00:51:30,910
nobody will ever understand the real

929
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:33,750
essence underlying the pair research

930
00:51:40,490 --> 00:51:37,090
unless they understand the strange and

931
00:51:42,810 --> 00:51:40,500
wonderful dynamic between human Bob John

932
00:51:46,530 --> 00:51:42,820
you really ought to write a book about

933
00:51:50,250 --> 00:51:46,540
that and that was what we did a year or

934
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:50,260
two ago it's a book that has it was a

935
00:51:56,250 --> 00:51:51,970
wonderful book to write it has no

936
00:51:59,490 --> 00:51:56,260
equations no tables no you know it has

937
00:52:02,690 --> 00:51:59,500
some fun pictures yes basically it's the

938
00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:02,700
story of two people who really come from

939
00:52:08,850 --> 00:52:06,310
- almost two different universes okay

940
00:52:11,550 --> 00:52:08,860
I'm very little in common in the

941
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:11,560
ordinary sense of the term but who

942
00:52:22,950 --> 00:52:19,330
shared a vision who respected and you

943
00:52:25,470 --> 00:52:22,960
know learned from each other and how

944
00:52:30,590 --> 00:52:25,480
somehow or other in the dynamic between

945
00:52:33,780 --> 00:52:30,600
the two of us how much as in you know a

946
00:52:37,410 --> 00:52:33,790
molecular configuration where you have

947
00:52:40,230 --> 00:52:37,420
two separate atoms that when they come

948
00:52:42,330 --> 00:52:40,240
together and form a molecule it turns

949
00:52:44,910 --> 00:52:42,340
out that the molecule has different

950
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:44,920
characteristics than the individual

951
00:52:51,480 --> 00:52:47,410
atoms I mean look at water it's made up

952
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:51,490
of oxygen and hydrogen but no matter how

953
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:53,290
hard you look at oxygen or hydrogen

954
00:52:59,040 --> 00:52:56,610
you're not going to come up with water

955
00:53:01,830 --> 00:52:59,050
there's something that's going on here

956
00:53:05,460 --> 00:53:01,840
that unifies that in the relationship

957
00:53:10,230 --> 00:53:05,470
the dynamic of the interaction something

958
00:53:13,170 --> 00:53:10,240
special and unique happens and we also

959
00:53:16,740 --> 00:53:13,180
used to joke that Bob and I were almost

960
00:53:21,480 --> 00:53:16,750
like AES example of the wave particle

961
00:53:26,100 --> 00:53:21,490
duality yes I love that yeah he was very

962
00:53:27,670 --> 00:53:26,110
much the particle he was very precise

963
00:53:31,420 --> 00:53:27,680
about position

964
00:53:33,430 --> 00:53:31,430
and time and quantitative measurements

965
00:53:37,390 --> 00:53:33,440
and you know basically I mean he was an

966
00:53:41,230 --> 00:53:37,400
engineer okay and a physicist I was not

967
00:53:43,720 --> 00:53:41,240
I was more of a molecule and just as a

968
00:53:47,319 --> 00:53:43,730
part particle deals with position and

969
00:53:51,309 --> 00:53:47,329
momentum a wave deals with resonance

970
00:53:53,349 --> 00:53:51,319
with frequencies and amplitudes I'm good

971
00:53:55,530 --> 00:53:53,359
at frequencies and amplitudes but I get

972
00:54:00,430 --> 00:53:55,540
lost

973
00:54:04,329 --> 00:54:00,440
yeah but but it is really again this

974
00:54:07,089 --> 00:54:04,339
this complementarity of the two of us

975
00:54:09,490 --> 00:54:07,099
that made the the program what it was

976
00:54:13,180 --> 00:54:09,500
and the book describes a number of

977
00:54:16,240 --> 00:54:13,190
interesting anecdotes and little stories

978
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:16,250
about our adventures together it's

979
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:18,770
wonderful noting I might add some some

980
00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:21,200
of some wonderful experiences we had in

981
00:54:29,710 --> 00:54:27,530
interactions with animals and but I I

982
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:29,720
can't you know tell you or your

983
00:54:33,819 --> 00:54:32,210
listeners that all the stories in the

984
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:33,829
book but it's a fun read it is a

985
00:54:38,589 --> 00:54:36,170
wonderful book and I highly recommend it

986
00:54:41,559 --> 00:54:38,599
I just want to mention that I I do

987
00:54:44,109 --> 00:54:41,569
highly recommend the book I wanted to

988
00:54:49,059 --> 00:54:44,119
just the title that's not molecular

989
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:49,069
molecular I thought it was a different

990
00:54:55,809 --> 00:54:53,210
book in addition to that no yeah it was

991
00:54:57,430 --> 00:54:55,819
published by the ICR Oprah's and that

992
00:55:01,750 --> 00:54:57,440
and all of our books are available

993
00:55:07,390 --> 00:55:01,760
online through either Amazon or Barnes &

994
00:55:10,870 --> 00:55:07,400
Noble so ok as I say you can you can go

995
00:55:12,880 --> 00:55:10,880
to IC RL dot org look up you know click

996
00:55:15,579 --> 00:55:12,890
on IC RL press and look at the whole

997
00:55:18,400 --> 00:55:15,589
list of books and you can order them

998
00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:18,410
from there but they they describe you

999
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:19,910
know give a little description of what

1000
00:55:26,740 --> 00:55:24,290
the books are as for me at this point in

1001
00:55:31,240 --> 00:55:26,750
my life I'm kind of glad to be out of

1002
00:55:33,849 --> 00:55:31,250
the science business and and I'm very

1003
00:55:36,849 --> 00:55:33,859
much enjoying being in the publishing

1004
00:55:39,690 --> 00:55:36,859
business where it's really yeah you know

1005
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:39,700
it's a whole new thing for me and a

1006
00:55:44,799 --> 00:55:41,839
chance to

1007
00:55:48,430 --> 00:55:44,809
to learn you know from many different

1008
00:55:51,339 --> 00:55:48,440
perspectives different voices and

1009
00:55:54,190 --> 00:55:51,349
looking at different different ways of

1010
00:55:56,859 --> 00:55:54,200
looking at reality and looking for the

1011
00:56:01,029 --> 00:55:56,869
commonalities across all of these

1012
00:56:02,380 --> 00:56:01,039
different domains so as I say that

1013
00:56:05,799 --> 00:56:02,390
that's where I'm at

1014
00:56:09,789 --> 00:56:05,809
in this era of my life now that you know

1015
00:56:12,730 --> 00:56:09,799
I've we've retired from pair I'd I just

1016
00:56:16,779 --> 00:56:12,740
want to say what a wonderful thrill it

1017
00:56:20,410 --> 00:56:16,789
was for me to meet you and dr. Robert

1018
00:56:24,009 --> 00:56:20,420
John for the first time at the recent

1019
00:56:25,930 --> 00:56:24,019
SSE symposium up in Yale which is where

1020
00:56:31,269 --> 00:56:25,940
I made your acquaintance

1021
00:56:35,980 --> 00:56:31,279
and so at this and and you gave an

1022
00:56:41,799 --> 00:56:35,990
address to for the Founders Award which

1023
00:56:43,989 --> 00:56:41,809
was given to dr. John well that was last

1024
00:56:45,849 --> 00:56:43,999
year and this year they gave it to me

1025
00:56:48,609 --> 00:56:45,859
they gave it to you I'm sorry I got

1026
00:56:51,249 --> 00:56:48,619
confused there yeah well let me put in a

1027
00:56:55,420 --> 00:56:51,259
little plug if I may for the Society for

1028
00:56:57,460 --> 00:56:55,430
scientific exploration or sse and again

1029
00:57:02,099 --> 00:56:57,470
their website is scientific like

1030
00:57:07,029 --> 00:57:02,109
exploration org but sse was established

1031
00:57:09,970 --> 00:57:07,039
not long after pair was by a handful of

1032
00:57:13,180 --> 00:57:09,980
scholars who were interested in topics

1033
00:57:17,470 --> 00:57:13,190
that lay outside of traditional science

1034
00:57:19,839 --> 00:57:17,480
and who were finding a very skeptical or

1035
00:57:22,239 --> 00:57:19,849
negative response to their interests

1036
00:57:23,799 --> 00:57:22,249
among their colleagues they were having

1037
00:57:27,339 --> 00:57:23,809
difficult I mean these were people who

1038
00:57:31,329 --> 00:57:27,349
were interested in things like psychic

1039
00:57:36,120 --> 00:57:31,339
phenomena UFOs out-of-body experiences

1040
00:57:39,789 --> 00:57:36,130
and your death experiences reincarnation

1041
00:57:43,829 --> 00:57:39,799
homeopathy you know it's a whole broad

1042
00:57:52,329 --> 00:57:45,910
cryptozoology you know the search for a

1043
00:57:54,769 --> 00:57:52,339
Bigfoot and and such and they decided

1044
00:57:57,140 --> 00:57:54,779
that since they could not get a

1045
00:57:58,599 --> 00:57:57,150
hearing from their professional

1046
00:58:01,729 --> 00:57:58,609
colleagues they would start their own

1047
00:58:05,149 --> 00:58:01,739
organization so FF II became a

1048
00:58:07,609 --> 00:58:05,159
professional society for the

1049
00:58:10,699 --> 00:58:07,619
presentation and sharing of research

1050
00:58:14,659 --> 00:58:10,709
that was going on in these fields that

1051
00:58:17,329 --> 00:58:14,669
lay sort of outside the mainstream this

1052
00:58:20,049 --> 00:58:17,339
is sorry I'm not quite sure I think this

1053
00:58:25,159 --> 00:58:20,059
last meeting was something like its 35th

1054
00:58:29,239 --> 00:58:25,169
annual meeting but both Bob and I were

1055
00:58:33,199 --> 00:58:29,249
active from the beginning in sse helping

1056
00:58:35,149 --> 00:58:33,209
to organize meetings we that we have a

1057
00:58:38,449 --> 00:58:35,159
journal the Journal of scientific

1058
00:58:40,989 --> 00:58:38,459
exploration that comes out quarterly

1059
00:58:45,999 --> 00:58:40,999
it's a refereed journal that it presents

1060
00:58:50,989 --> 00:58:46,009
good research in you know many of these

1061
00:58:53,029 --> 00:58:50,999
renegade heretical areas and it's very

1062
00:58:56,390 --> 00:58:53,039
interesting it also publishes a magazine

1063
00:58:58,759 --> 00:58:56,400
called edge science that's not quite as

1064
00:59:03,069 --> 00:58:58,769
technical but has some interesting

1065
00:59:07,219 --> 00:59:03,079
essays on on topics of this sort

1066
00:59:09,979 --> 00:59:07,229
alternative energy oh I can't even think

1067
00:59:11,959 --> 00:59:09,989
of you know all the topics but if you

1068
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:11,969
can think of the topic that's outside

1069
00:59:19,249 --> 00:59:15,119
the mainstream it's inside sfe indeed it

1070
00:59:21,799 --> 00:59:19,259
is and you know ssee

1071
00:59:24,049 --> 00:59:21,809
encourages people to join as members or

1072
00:59:26,089 --> 00:59:24,059
associates so that you get a

1073
00:59:30,130 --> 00:59:26,099
subscription to the journal invitations

1074
00:59:32,569 --> 00:59:30,140
to the meetings and as you probably

1075
00:59:35,839 --> 00:59:32,579
gathered from your own experience these

1076
00:59:38,509 --> 00:59:35,849
meetings are fascinating not only are

1077
00:59:41,149 --> 00:59:38,519
the presentations interesting and

1078
00:59:44,539 --> 00:59:41,159
stimulating but the dynamic is wonderful

1079
00:59:48,049 --> 00:59:44,549
you have a bunch of of outcasts if you

1080
00:59:51,789 --> 00:59:48,059
will who come together and huddle for

1081
00:59:54,919 --> 00:59:51,799
warmth with others you know who have

1082
00:59:59,589 --> 00:59:54,929
experienced that kind of rejection and

1083
01:00:01,999 --> 00:59:59,599
it lends itself to a very warm community

1084
01:00:04,059 --> 01:00:02,009
you know it's that it's always good to

1085
01:00:07,579 --> 01:00:04,069
go you know and see one's friends

1086
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:07,589
absolutely I observed in my talk this

1087
01:00:11,390 --> 01:00:08,640
year

1088
01:00:13,490 --> 01:00:11,400
it's great to see you know familiar

1089
01:00:18,650 --> 01:00:13,500
faces although so many of them have now

1090
01:00:22,370 --> 01:00:18,660
great the years have gone by myself

1091
01:00:25,700 --> 01:00:22,380
included but it is it is a great

1092
01:00:27,950 --> 01:00:25,710
organization and for people interested

1093
01:00:30,580 --> 01:00:27,960
in topics such as those you cover in

1094
01:00:32,990 --> 01:00:30,590
your broadcasts I think this would be a

1095
01:00:34,940 --> 01:00:33,000
society that they might be interested in

1096
01:00:37,220 --> 01:00:34,950
joining absolutely anyway that's my

1097
01:00:39,890 --> 01:00:37,230
that's my plug but you know you don't

1098
01:00:42,610 --> 01:00:39,900
have to plug it to us personally because

1099
01:00:46,490 --> 01:00:42,620
both Kate Valentine and myself are

1100
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:46,500
associate members of the SS good but and

1101
01:00:51,920 --> 01:00:49,050
we have as you may know from the flyer

1102
01:00:55,430 --> 01:00:51,930
which I gave you at the SSE that we have

1103
01:01:00,680 --> 01:00:55,440
had any number of SSE members as guests

1104
01:01:03,250 --> 01:01:00,690
already and plan to have more if you

1105
01:01:06,890 --> 01:01:03,260
have incidentally if you haven't

1106
01:01:09,830 --> 01:01:06,900
approached William Bengston who is the

1107
01:01:12,260 --> 01:01:09,840
president of SSC he might be an

1108
01:01:15,410 --> 01:01:12,270
interesting person to talk to also he

1109
01:01:20,590 --> 01:01:15,420
has done some incredible research on

1110
01:01:23,570 --> 01:01:20,600
healing with particularly using mice and

1111
01:01:26,930 --> 01:01:23,580
using you know no medication or anything

1112
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:26,940
just through pure consciousness been

1113
01:01:36,920 --> 01:01:34,650
able to cause cancers to to disappear

1114
01:01:39,950 --> 01:01:36,930
what's the word I'm looking for

1115
01:01:41,210 --> 01:01:39,960
total remission permission remiss thank

1116
01:01:44,390 --> 01:01:41,220
you

1117
01:01:48,260 --> 01:01:44,400
yeah doctor Bengston is a very very

1118
01:01:50,570 --> 01:01:48,270
interesting person and certainly known

1119
01:01:55,220 --> 01:01:50,580
to us and we will certainly consider

1120
01:01:58,940 --> 01:01:55,230
that idea and we do have coming up we

1121
01:02:01,910 --> 01:01:58,950
hope dr. Roger Nelson and dr. Edie Kelly

1122
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:01,920
two other members but we're going to

1123
01:02:08,570 --> 01:02:05,010
have to wind it down for today but

1124
01:02:10,220 --> 01:02:08,580
before we go I wanted to I had asked you

1125
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:10,230
beforehand if you wanted to stick around

1126
01:02:17,630 --> 01:02:13,530
for the story that I wanted to tell

1127
01:02:22,070 --> 01:02:17,640
about what happened to me

1128
01:02:25,910 --> 01:02:22,080
prior to this recent SST meeting up in

1129
01:02:28,010 --> 01:02:25,920
and then during a little walk we took so

1130
01:02:32,150 --> 01:02:28,020
if you don't mind I'm going to tell that

1131
01:02:33,440 --> 01:02:32,160
story right now and I'd be delighted to

1132
01:02:37,490 --> 01:02:33,450
hear it okay

1133
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:37,500
what let me at least say since we're

1134
01:02:41,990 --> 01:02:40,050
going to move on to another topic I want

1135
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:42,000
to thank you for the opportunity to

1136
01:02:49,340 --> 01:02:44,730
share some of my experiences with your

1137
01:02:53,210 --> 01:02:49,350
your listeners and you know to invite me

1138
01:02:55,460 --> 01:02:53,220
to participate in this program and it's

1139
01:02:57,710 --> 01:02:55,470
just a pleasure for me and it's a

1140
01:03:00,200 --> 01:02:57,720
pleasure to get to know you well thank

1141
01:03:03,260 --> 01:03:00,210
you so much it's going to say oh yeah

1142
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:03,270
really thank you for honor our honor to

1143
01:03:13,460 --> 01:03:07,770
to have you have you on the program in

1144
01:03:16,430 --> 01:03:13,470
any case just briefly - we have a sound

1145
01:03:19,580 --> 01:03:16,440
here that's okay it's not an EVP it's

1146
01:03:24,590 --> 01:03:19,590
just a phone it's a phone okay

1147
01:03:28,610 --> 01:03:24,600
so prior to attending the meeting at

1148
01:03:31,610 --> 01:03:28,620
Yale I was in Rhode Island and the last

1149
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:31,620
night that I was in Rhode Island I had a

1150
01:03:41,600 --> 01:03:35,130
dream and in my dream I was walking down

1151
01:03:43,820 --> 01:03:41,610
a curved a sidewalk or a path a path

1152
01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:43,830
that was fairly well traversed not a

1153
01:03:49,220 --> 01:03:46,890
path in the woods and it was a curved

1154
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:49,230
path and I was walking down this path

1155
01:03:56,810 --> 01:03:52,410
and somebody was standing on my left

1156
01:04:00,290 --> 01:03:56,820
side slightly behind me and I saw a

1157
01:04:05,150 --> 01:04:00,300
woman with a little dog in my dream and

1158
01:04:08,720 --> 01:04:05,160
this woman a you know was was was

1159
01:04:13,550 --> 01:04:08,730
walking the dog toward me and I said to

1160
01:04:15,350 --> 01:04:13,560
my I said to my companion who was on the

1161
01:04:17,900 --> 01:04:15,360
left slightly behind me

1162
01:04:20,570 --> 01:04:17,910
gee that dog looks like a miniature

1163
01:04:23,870 --> 01:04:20,580
German Shepherd and I wonder if that's

1164
01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:23,880
the kind of dog I should get and that

1165
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:26,130
was kind of the beginning in the end of

1166
01:04:31,070 --> 01:04:27,930
the dream that was a the light was

1167
01:04:32,780 --> 01:04:31,080
golden there was a friend on my my I'm

1168
01:04:34,120 --> 01:04:32,790
sorry on my right side I did say on my

1169
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:34,130
left on my rights

1170
01:04:39,280 --> 01:04:36,530
and I made this comment about a

1171
01:04:40,870 --> 01:04:39,290
miniature German Shepherd and I thought

1172
01:04:44,320 --> 01:04:40,880
about this dream I thought how unusual

1173
01:04:47,620 --> 01:04:44,330
it was and I made note of it because I

1174
01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:47,630
keep a dream diary well the next night

1175
01:04:55,630 --> 01:04:52,490
was my first night at the at the Yale

1176
01:04:59,590 --> 01:04:55,640
facility and I had reason to call up my

1177
01:05:02,800 --> 01:04:59,600
my co-conspirator miss Kate Valentine

1178
01:05:05,050 --> 01:05:02,810
here's man I because we often talk about

1179
01:05:06,910 --> 01:05:05,060
animals we're both animal lovers and we

1180
01:05:09,930 --> 01:05:06,920
and I've spoken to her before about how

1181
01:05:13,480 --> 01:05:09,940
much I'd like to have a dog and so I

1182
01:05:15,970 --> 01:05:13,490
said to her I told her about my dream

1183
01:05:19,210 --> 01:05:15,980
and I said that I thought she might have

1184
01:05:20,680 --> 01:05:19,220
been the person on my right behind me

1185
01:05:21,490 --> 01:05:20,690
because of the fact we always talk about

1186
01:05:24,610 --> 01:05:21,500
dogs

1187
01:05:26,650 --> 01:05:24,620
well her comment to me was that as far

1188
01:05:28,270 --> 01:05:26,660
as she knew there was no miniature

1189
01:05:30,310 --> 01:05:28,280
German Shepherd but there were a lot of

1190
01:05:32,590 --> 01:05:30,320
nice mixed breed dogs who might look

1191
01:05:35,140 --> 01:05:32,600
like a miniature German Shepherd and I

1192
01:05:37,150 --> 01:05:35,150
said hey Kate that's cool and we moved

1193
01:05:40,540 --> 01:05:37,160
on to other stuff but I did explain to

1194
01:05:45,270 --> 01:05:40,550
her my dream in just oh yeah I verify it

1195
01:05:49,450 --> 01:05:45,280
ok good so then the day after that night

1196
01:05:53,500 --> 01:05:49,460
I was at the yale dining hall dining

1197
01:05:58,270 --> 01:05:53,510
with a group of people who included my

1198
01:06:02,430 --> 01:05:58,280
friend mike turner who also had part in

1199
01:06:05,140 --> 01:06:02,440
the experiments that a doctor bill

1200
01:06:06,630 --> 01:06:05,150
Bankston made with the mice etcetera I

1201
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:06,640
think he did some form of statistical

1202
01:06:14,500 --> 01:06:09,770
analysis and so forth I'm I'm not quite

1203
01:06:17,620 --> 01:06:14,510
clear but doctor Bengston came over to

1204
01:06:21,130 --> 01:06:17,630
Mike and said would you mind walking

1205
01:06:23,260 --> 01:06:21,140
over to the next location which was kind

1206
01:06:25,150 --> 01:06:23,270
of far away from the dining hall and

1207
01:06:27,460 --> 01:06:25,160
everybody was confused as to the maps

1208
01:06:31,180 --> 01:06:27,470
and so forth and he said would you mind

1209
01:06:36,010 --> 01:06:31,190
walking over with Brenda Dunn and Bob

1210
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:36,020
John dr. Bob John to the next of the

1211
01:06:39,670 --> 01:06:37,610
location so that they get there on time

1212
01:06:42,370 --> 01:06:39,680
and at all you know that everybody goes

1213
01:06:46,810 --> 01:06:42,380
where there should go so the four of us

1214
01:06:50,650 --> 01:06:46,820
proceeded to walk across the

1215
01:06:55,480 --> 01:06:50,660
the main streets in New Haven where Yale

1216
01:06:58,110 --> 01:06:55,490
is located with a Michael Turner on my

1217
01:07:01,930 --> 01:06:58,120
right side just slightly behind me and

1218
01:07:05,170 --> 01:07:01,940
Brenda Dunn and Bob John walking just

1219
01:07:07,930 --> 01:07:05,180
slightly behind when along comes this

1220
01:07:11,920 --> 01:07:07,940
lady with a little dog down a curved

1221
01:07:15,820 --> 01:07:11,930
sidewalk towards me and my Walker

1222
01:07:18,190 --> 01:07:15,830
friends and it was just the most

1223
01:07:21,790 --> 01:07:18,200
beautiful little puppy and when it

1224
01:07:23,860 --> 01:07:21,800
finally reached us I think somebody

1225
01:07:26,470 --> 01:07:23,870
might have been me said what kind of a

1226
01:07:29,650 --> 01:07:26,480
dog is that to which the young woman

1227
01:07:32,500 --> 01:07:29,660
replied it is an Austrian Austria

1228
01:07:35,290 --> 01:07:32,510
miniature Australian Shepherd and all of

1229
01:07:38,710 --> 01:07:35,300
a sudden it became clear to me that my

1230
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:38,720
dream had pretty much been realized in

1231
01:07:44,860 --> 01:07:42,650
real life and I since I didn't really

1232
01:07:46,720 --> 01:07:44,870
know anything about an Australian

1233
01:07:49,900 --> 01:07:46,730
Shepherd or a miniature Australian

1234
01:07:52,540 --> 01:07:49,910
Shepherd my monkey mind translated that

1235
01:07:57,160 --> 01:07:52,550
into a miniature German Shepherd and I

1236
01:08:00,790 --> 01:07:57,170
was ecstatic over the fact that both you

1237
01:08:03,160 --> 01:08:00,800
Brenda and dr. John seemed to be very

1238
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:03,170
entranced by the dog and I realized that

1239
01:08:08,410 --> 01:08:05,450
the two of you were both dog lovers and

1240
01:08:09,420 --> 01:08:08,420
so I realized I was amongst my kind of

1241
01:08:12,640 --> 01:08:09,430
people

1242
01:08:15,250 --> 01:08:12,650
yeah i reaiiy remember the event quite

1243
01:08:18,099 --> 01:08:15,260
clearly because it was the very friendly

1244
01:08:19,870 --> 01:08:18,109
little puppy that came up and wanted you

1245
01:08:22,480 --> 01:08:19,880
know to be petted in the attention and

1246
01:08:25,450 --> 01:08:22,490
it was wagging its tail like crazy we

1247
01:08:29,530 --> 01:08:25,460
were all away annoying over it yes and

1248
01:08:31,630 --> 01:08:29,540
so so that's my little did you kid go

1249
01:08:34,240 --> 01:08:31,640
ahead did you get in Australian Shepherd

1250
01:08:37,329 --> 01:08:34,250
no I haven't gotten a dog yet I don't

1251
01:08:40,180 --> 01:08:37,339
think that I probably would get a

1252
01:08:43,420 --> 01:08:40,190
pedigree dog unless it was a rescue I'm

1253
01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:43,430
more the rescue type in terms of my my

1254
01:08:49,270 --> 01:08:46,570
many cats and my occasional dog I

1255
01:08:51,670 --> 01:08:49,280
haven't gotten a dog yet because it

1256
01:08:55,870 --> 01:08:51,680
doesn't seem to be the right time but I

1257
01:08:58,690 --> 01:08:55,880
will certainly look for a lovely dog

1258
01:09:00,250 --> 01:08:58,700
when it's when I'm able to get one but

1259
01:09:03,220 --> 01:09:00,260
you know you talk I'm

1260
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:03,230
mentioned that over the years I have

1261
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:07,730
gotten countless stories from people

1262
01:09:13,860 --> 01:09:11,210
about similar things dreams that you

1263
01:09:17,170 --> 01:09:13,870
know happened just as they were dreamt

1264
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:17,180
you know precognitive experiences that

1265
01:09:23,140 --> 01:09:19,610
then came came about just as they had

1266
01:09:25,810 --> 01:09:23,150
been envisioned you know people have

1267
01:09:28,720 --> 01:09:25,820
asked me can you explain this and me I'm

1268
01:09:31,300 --> 01:09:28,730
like typical answer is I can't explain

1269
01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:31,310
it I can tell you is based on my

1270
01:09:38,590 --> 01:09:34,130
experience it's far more common than

1271
01:09:40,810 --> 01:09:38,600
most people would think but you talk

1272
01:09:43,240 --> 01:09:40,820
about emergent psychology like with

1273
01:09:46,540 --> 01:09:43,250
friend number generators I mean you even

1274
01:09:49,480 --> 01:09:46,550
take a look at dogs a a dog will react

1275
01:09:54,400 --> 01:09:49,490
certainly one way a pack of dogs reacts

1276
01:09:59,220 --> 01:09:54,410
a whole different ways so you know well

1277
01:10:03,250 --> 01:09:59,230
if I have another moment on the air but

1278
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:03,260
we actually had a friend also a member

1279
01:10:10,660 --> 01:10:07,810
of SASE who used to have a number of

1280
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:10,670
raccoons who lived in the woods behind

1281
01:10:16,510 --> 01:10:13,850
her house and they would come up to the

1282
01:10:21,010 --> 01:10:16,520
porch her back porch and she put out

1283
01:10:23,620 --> 01:10:21,020
peanuts for them and she once said to me

1284
01:10:26,380 --> 01:10:23,630
you know those raccoons are so clever

1285
01:10:29,440 --> 01:10:26,390
and they will do just about anything to

1286
01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:29,450
get peanuts mm-hmm I said to her

1287
01:10:38,650 --> 01:10:32,570
anything and she looked at me and I

1288
01:10:42,160 --> 01:10:38,660
looked at her we developed a little obey

1289
01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:42,170
ston an old gumball dispenser hooked up

1290
01:10:49,990 --> 01:10:46,010
to a random event yet oh my gosh we with

1291
01:10:53,020 --> 01:10:50,000
filled with peanuts that's and it turned

1292
01:10:54,790 --> 01:10:53,030
out it never really went too far because

1293
01:10:57,310 --> 01:10:54,800
she ended up with some technical

1294
01:11:00,610 --> 01:10:57,320
problems with the device but in the

1295
01:11:03,160 --> 01:11:00,620
meantime over the time that she had she

1296
01:11:06,070 --> 01:11:03,170
said that it was really astounding how

1297
01:11:08,890 --> 01:11:06,080
these raccoons would come up and do if

1298
01:11:11,440 --> 01:11:08,900
each would have their own technique for

1299
01:11:13,810 --> 01:11:11,450
example one would put its paws on the

1300
01:11:14,120 --> 01:11:13,820
machine and then step back and wait for

1301
01:11:16,700 --> 01:11:14,130
it to

1302
01:11:19,280 --> 01:11:16,710
spends peanuts another one would walk

1303
01:11:22,580 --> 01:11:19,290
around it and then come to the front

1304
01:11:24,740 --> 01:11:22,590
wait for it to dispense and another one

1305
01:11:26,629 --> 01:11:24,750
which I thought was a riot said would

1306
01:11:29,030 --> 01:11:26,639
look at the machine turn its back and

1307
01:11:31,010 --> 01:11:29,040
walk to the edge of the porch as if it

1308
01:11:34,990 --> 01:11:31,020
was ignoring it and then stop and look

1309
01:11:39,590 --> 01:11:35,000
over its shoulder oh boy I like that one

1310
01:11:42,910 --> 01:11:39,600
but yes I think experiments along these

1311
01:11:45,860 --> 01:11:42,920
lines with animals would be fantastic

1312
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:45,870
they are so much better than we are at

1313
01:11:53,149 --> 01:11:48,210
pure perception you know without all the

1314
01:11:55,490 --> 01:11:53,159
monkey mind getting away and I suspect I

1315
01:11:57,890 --> 01:11:55,500
suspect the results could be very

1316
01:12:00,709 --> 01:11:57,900
interesting it sounds like a wonderful

1317
01:12:04,490 --> 01:12:00,719
idea for somebody somebody young

1318
01:12:06,709 --> 01:12:04,500
scientists from the SSE group to to work

1319
01:12:09,050 --> 01:12:06,719
on and we can put it out there for them

1320
01:12:12,700 --> 01:12:09,060
I'm afraid the time has come at this

1321
01:12:16,610 --> 01:12:12,710
juncture yeah where we need to say idea

1322
01:12:19,189 --> 01:12:16,620
of either saying sayonara but thank you

1323
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:19,199
so much is a very fascinating discussion

1324
01:12:22,970 --> 01:12:21,090
I appreciate your your spending this

1325
01:12:28,970 --> 01:12:22,980
time with them thank you so much Brenda

1326
01:12:33,740 --> 01:12:28,980
done former lab director at pair and a

1327
01:12:37,280 --> 01:12:33,750
current publisher for IC RL thank you so

1328
01:12:38,270 --> 01:12:37,290
much for participating with us and it

1329
01:12:44,950 --> 01:12:38,280
was my pleasure

1330
01:12:54,940 --> 01:12:44,960
okay it's time to say goodbye from

1331
01:12:54,950 --> 01:13:05,520
[Music]